JKR and Albus Dumbledore

[dmf1984]

What is it with this chick? She just outed Albus Dumbledore, announcing that he is gay...the speculation that followed was that he and Grindelwald were in a very close relationship.

Sounds to me like a big publicity stunt as she prepare to write her HP "encyclopedia".

OK, so maybe AD was very much in love with GG. Now he's very much in love with MM and he's not gone...so there. :-P

[OSUSprinks]

I'm with you, Di. I can't believe she outed him. Adam (my Fil) called me this morning and said "I have bad news that might make you cry." Which is not a good way to start a conversation with me, lol. Anyway then he had to listen to me rant.

Did she actually say that about he and Grindelwald? I have trouble with the fact that he let a love that was so bad for him follow him his whole life. Even if he spent his life trying to recover from it, I can't believe he never loved again after that. Adam said she said it was his "greatest tradegy" that he was smitten with Grindelwald. Poor Albus.

Also, I can just see the Christian Right having a field day with this, literally parades and everything. Adam and I talked about the fact that were he real and in the USA, they would probably be calling for him to step down. Not only is he gay, but he was also in love with Hitler??? Send out the angry christians (yes lower case) with bullhorns and banners! ...Okay, so I just made myself laugh, but I really do think it would be a problem for them and the Harry Potter books already are.

*gets down from soap box*

Oh well, I just wish Albus was happy!

[furandfeathers]

As I said on the MMAD boards. I am so DONE with canon HP. I thought it couldn't get any worse when Dh read like a NaNo first draft...boy was I wrong. Not that I'm homophobic, quite the contrary, some of my best friends..actually, MOST of my male friends are gay. But there is no one else for Albus but Minerva and certainly NOT Grindlewald. I am officially dismissing DH...Albus was good. Grindlewald was not. I will accept that perhaps Albus was experimental in his youth, and then he found his soul mate in Minerva, not someone with the same pure blood ideals of Voldemort.

*end the Ro rant*

[Smaug]

It's all coming flodding back. My initial feelings of wanting to throw something heavy and expensive from a high builiding is back, and so is my anger. I'm sorry but my gay best friend and I don't flirt at all. Albus and Minerva?! Well, we didn't make their moments up!!! I have too much to say on this now. After I've caught up I'll do it.

[Sir Francis Drake's Heir]

Well, let me say on behalf of the GLBT community that, for us, it was A GOOD DAY.

A VERY GOOD DAY.

So much so that all the shipping nonsense just seems so... superficial. ALBUS DUMBLEDORE from HARRY POTTER was one of us, do you see where I'm coming from?

A character who was so beloved from something that is so mainstream is one of us. It's just a huge victory, especially since she waited until now to out him.

"See? You can love people who are gay!"

And it's homosexuality in a not-for-lols, acceptable form in many, many homes in America.

eloquentphoenix said:

It's all coming flodding back. My initial feelings of wanting to throw something heavy and expensive from a high builiding is back, and so is my anger. I'm sorry but my gay best friend and I don't flirt at all. Albus and Minerva?! Well, we didn't make their moments up!!! I have too much to say on this now. After I've caught up I'll do it.

We didn't make the moments up, we misinterpreted them.

They're not close because they're in love, they're close because they can talk about boyfriend problems and Transfiguration theory and school and Kingsley Shaklebolt and Quidditch and go shopping together (Well, Albus drags Minerva to Gladrags and is all "Does this hat bring out my eyes?" while Min is all "Jesus Christ now I remember why I refrain from shopping with you.") and frolic through flowers and hold hands and giggle.

Actually someone posted a very hilarious sketch dump at the Grindeldore LiveJournal comm.

Transcript is thus:

AD: OK, Member of the Order you'd most likely do? Ready? 1... 2... 3...

Both: KINGSLEY SHACKLEBOLT!

I mean, how can you not love that?

Sprinkles, I think that he and Elphias Doge were happy in a domestic partnership that may or may not have been the "Professors were married but kept it secret" thing.

And furandfeathers, I disagree that Grindelwald had the same ideals as Voldy. He thought he was saving everyone, Muggles and Wizards. He had good intentions, but he was just a little too gung-ho, and he didn't know when to stop.

Which is why he needed Albus, to be all "WHOA SLOW DOWN THAR BOY A CONCENTRATION WHATNOW?"

Which is why they are OTP.

[Smaug]

*Glares* I can quite easily not love that because he's just not gay! I can't take it! I don't want to talk about it, I refuse to accept it, I mean Grindelwald? Come on! GLBT? I'm glad you had a good day whilst we all suffered!

Okay, sorry, I'm stopping with the melodrama now. GLBT? And I'm still nto sure I can talk about it. We haven't misinterpretted any moments, because in my mind they will always be true. And a camp Albus Dumbledore? No way.

[Sir Francis Drake's Heir]

Yeah, sorry if my squeeing over a what I believe to be a major blow for my civil rights is interfering with your grieving over the perceived relationship between two fictional characters. (kidding)

And yes, it's a fictional character who's gay, but still, he is such an iconic, beloved fictional character, that I can't help but think that maybe it'll make a difference, if not for this generation, than the next.

Because lots of kids read Harry Potter. And one of the heroes of Harry Potter is gay. So maybe, just maybe, the next generation of politicians and lawmakers will be less homophobic than their modern counterparts.

Just a thought.

[Smaug]

She could have made anyone else gay! Anyone! why did she have to do this to us? WHY? Though in principle I agree, but I'd have thought it would have done better being in the books than being said now when many will perceive it as just a publicity stunt.

I'm sorry if my grief intereferes with your squeeing on a thread for that said grief! (Also, just kidding). I'm afraid I'll never be able to be happy for any of you, though.

Aren't you/weren't you a MMAD shipper anyway? I don't have a problem with him being gay, and if I weren't a MMAD shipper it'd probably be quite good. If only she could have said all of this 3 years ago before I recognised my love of ADMM.

[Sir Francis Drake's Heir]

Yah, I'm a MMAD shipper. I just don't care about my fanfic being canon.

[pinkie]

GLBT? I have no idea what that stands for (but remember i am Dutch )

Still, my bi-sexual friend (I don't love a man or a woman, i love a person - she says, i love that) found a website that might make you smile, Sir Francis: www.dumbledorepride.com - this has to be taken with a great big wink, though.


How do i feel about this all? I have already put it on the ADMMboard, but this is more my home now and i thought, why not put my tuppence worth here?

1. i don't care about people's sexuality. People are people. There are nice people and people i can't stand.
2. gay, straight, bi, a-sexual, i don't care what Albus is, he is still my hero
3. canon has no influence on my fanfiction.

I must admit i was a wee bit shocked at first, because i really didn't see it coming. I mean, Albus is flamboyant, well-spoken, kind, knows how to talk to women and is a wonderful teacher. I don't see these parts of his character as specifically gay.

I am not sure JK implied that Albus and Gellert were in a relationship - it could be that they were just very close. I am very close with my friends, but i don't see them as sexually interesting (this may be because i have a lovely boyfriend, wink wink, nudge nudge).

Will JK outing Albus have any effect on my writing?

It already has - in fact, i was so stirred by this news, i wrote a snippet and put it here on the board. Now i have it off my chest and there will be no impact on my writing, probably. I like writing things that aren't canon, like CharmingRoots!!!

[Smaug]

This is the post I put on the ADMM boards and it took me long enough so I'm not writing a new one for here. Sorry. I'm still pissed off, and hurt, and I feel better once I read lots of fluff. And hopefully get over Albus being gay and separate everything fully in my mind.

My post:

Right. Here goes nothing.

We've taken a fair bit of beating on our little ship. Firstly, half of our ship got killed, then our ship was sunk, and finally the aforementioned dead half of the ship is apparently gay and in love with some evil dark lord from forever ago. Ouch. Is all I can say to that. It was like, okay, Albus is dead but we can cope with that since Albus and Min could have had many happy years before that and it gave all our angst writers a nice opening for it. And stopped some people writing but there we go. Mind you, that angst opening is nothing like now, eh Min? And everyone else who said the angst bunnies were already hopping. Then, Jo sank our ship, that's the knife going in. Now a few months down the line the knife twists and now Albus is gay. I feel betrayed, not by Jo don't get me wrong, but by myself. Should have seen that one coming. I think I need to beat my gaydar back into shape, though it usually serves me well in RL and stops too much RL angst. Though I think the reason I didn't see this coming is because I saw Albus' and Gellart's relationship similar to the relationship I have with my best friend now. Not on purpose, completely subconsciously until now. You see, those letters, that closeness is the kind of thing that I have with my friend. And I am so not his type as I’m far too female, and generally, like I said, my gaydar keeps me away from gay guys in that way. Even though half of my male friends are gay. Anyway, I'm going off the point. It hurt a lot, especially the shock.

At first when I was sat and I read it on Sprink’s Xanga, well, I didn’t exactly read it. I read that she was coming to terms with Albus’ sexuality. And since this was Saturday and I’d been on holiday away from you all having to pay 1 euro to go on the Internet for 15 minutes I hadn’t been on. So I had only a little time left and I panicked, as you might imagine. I rushed to Mugglenet and read it. I wanted to scream and cry and laugh and throw something heavy and expensive from a high window. Or throw my iPod in the pool since it kept playing songs like Nothing’s gonna stop us now and other lovely happy love songs. And everything I’ve ever considered writing an Albus and Minerva Songfic to. Then I couldn’t even think ADMM. I wished I hadn’t read it. Though I was glad I had because I would have got the news unceremoniously from my mum 10 minutes later when she read it in the paper. As ever, I’m thankful for small mercies. Just as I’m thankful the ship was already suck before Jo outed Albus also without ceremony.

Though, I have no blame at all for JKR. In fact I won't hear a word against her at all. I don't see it as a publicity stunt, like she needs any more publicity (!) and obviously she didn't do any of this to spite us. It was just unfortunate for us. It's probably the worst beating any ship has got from her, however accidental it was. I don't recall anything this bad for any ship. And it's worse because we already knew it wasn't canon, it's just that little bit harder for us now. If I weren’t a shipper I’d be pleased that she hadn’t ignored that gay people do exist and that at least she had some, or one, in the books. Though it would have been better in the books there was never a moment for it since we only ever know what Harry knows. And he’s always been clueless and oblivious. But it was said. Not I don’t think for anything to do with the fact that gay people exist or gay rights, he just so happened to be gay. Right from the start like she said. Still, not hearing any word against her.

I worried I would never write again. Panic not, I will do. Denial is the way forwards. Because as I said before I would recall a bit of ADMM fluff and big flashing letters saying Albus is gay would flash across my mind. If I was having that problem with fluff I kept my mind well clear of any lemons. Though, yesterday, that faded a little and my heart is healing itself slowly and building a new wall of denial. And, what's the harm in denial really? I think it's just that I wanted so much for it to be canon. More than I can say because it's the canon that I love. Not fanon, not made up bollocks about random ships like Albus and Gellart, honestly! Oh. Wait...

Though I think it was Sprinkles who asked what about the rest of Albus’ life? Would he remain loveless? Unlikely I think. Though I’m having none of this bi nonsense. Sorry. If he were bi she’d have said bi, not gay. And in my world of denial Albus is both straight and alive. My ADMM world and the real canon HP world barely mix anymore, I’m not even trying to mix them because I can see quite plainly that they don’t and trying to will make it worse. I’d rather forget his death and sexuality altogether than try to force a myth of bisexuality, ADMM and happily-ever-after into my canon HP head. Happily-ever-after ADMM with a straight and alive Albus belongs in my heart and will remain there. Another reason why I won’t give up writing ADMM. That I have one angst scenario canon (!) fic in mind. Then I’m giving up foraying into angst most definitely on a writing scale because that was always semi-canon and can’t be anymore.

So, to sum up all of this rubbish I’ve spouted as personal therapy:

Denial is the way forwards.
I’m giving up angst.
Canon and ADMM fanon will no longer mix for me and Albus isn’t bi.
ADMM to the end.
I don’t hate or blame JKR, as much as I would like to. And this wasn’t done to spite us.
I’m not happy at all.
But onwards my friends, even though we’re down to our last lifeboat with a little ADMM flag on it.
I’m going to drown myself in ADMM fluff and lemons and catch up on RaM.
And I’m going to write some fluff hopefully.

Oh yeah, I forgot one I was thinking the whole time I’ve just been pissed off at this. Because that’s what’s been my main emotion and it’s understandable since I was alone dealing with this. So my first and last thought:

For f**k’s sake, he’s just not gay!

[pinkie]

I don't really know what is worse: you having to deal with it alone, or my entire family and all my friends going: are you still writing that stupid stuff?

Yes i am and i am taking your list with me:

Denial is the way forwards. I am the Queen of Denial!
I’m giving up angst. Angst isn't really my thing anyway
Canon and ADMM fanon will no longer mix for me and Albus isn’t bi. I completely agree
ADMM to the end. 'till my dieing day
I don’t hate or blame JKR, as much as I would like to. And this wasn’t done to spite us. and i am happy for GLAAD
I’m not happy at all. about this, no, about other stuff: yes
But onwards my friends, even though we’re down to our last lifeboat with a little ADMM flag on it. What last lifeboat? they are all magical people, they can transfigure a fish into a yacht!
I’m going to drown myself in ADMM fluff and lemons and catch up on RaM. Good for you! I will do the exact same thing
And I’m going to write some fluff hopefully. I have already started and am hoping it will be sweet enough to make everyone forget


To make matters worse, i dreamt about JK saying that Minerva McGonagall is a hermaphrodite...
Thankfully it was followed by a dream about me finding a newborn in my office loo - so i was diverted from the first one....

[Sir Francis Drake's Heir]

pinkie said:

GLBT? I have no idea what that stands for (but remember i am Dutch )

Still, my bi-sexual friend (I don't love a man or a woman, i love a person - she says, i love that) found a website that might make you smile, Sir Francis: www.dumbledorepride.com - this has to be taken with a great big wink, though.


How do i feel about this all? I have already put it on the ADMMboard, but this is more my home now and i thought, why not put my tuppence worth here?

1. i don't care about people's sexuality. People are people. There are nice people and people i can't stand.
2. gay, straight, bi, a-sexual, i don't care what Albus is, he is still my hero
3. canon has no influence on my fanfiction.

I must admit i was a wee bit shocked at first, because i really didn't see it coming. I mean, Albus is flamboyant, well-spoken, kind, knows how to talk to women and is a wonderful teacher. I don't see these parts of his character as specifically gay.

I am not sure JK implied that Albus and Gellert were in a relationship - it could be that they were just very close. I am very close with my friends, but i don't see them as sexually interesting (this may be because i have a lovely boyfriend, wink wink, nudge nudge).

Will JK outing Albus have any effect on my writing?

It already has - in fact, i was so stirred by this news, i wrote a snippet and put it here on the board. Now i have it off my chest and there will be no impact on my writing, probably. I like writing things that aren't canon, like CharmingRoots!!!

You are a role model . A total role model.

GLBT means Gay Lesbian Bisexual Transgender.

LOL, pinkie. Don't get MMAD! Get GLAD! (GeLlet/AlbusDumbledore)

[OSUSprinks]

Let me first just give a warm hug to all of you! I completely agree about the excitement for GLBT, but also I thought it was sad that there was still outcry about it. I was reminded of Dr. King's "I Have a Dream" speech and "We Shall Overcome". A little steeped in African American history? Perhaps, but then it is my area of interest. It is sad to me that there seems to constantly be some group of people pushed to the outside in this supposedly free and equal country and in the world in general.

I was sad for ADMM, for a half beat, before I remembered that we already knew it wasn't cannon and since when has that stopped me anyway? This site would be my first case in point. lol I do love Albus and continue to do so (uh oh, there goes crazy liberal-Christian Laura again) and I am willing to go toe-to-toe with anyone who wants to argue with me about it! Not that I expect that here, but I'm sure flack will come.

And since I am on my religious soap box already (note: I'm saying this not as a person of authority on this site, but just as an average member so don't worry about disagreeing with me ever), let me just say that christians (lower case again) who judge people based on their sexuality are not Christians and please, please, please don't be fooled by their comments otherwise. Christ loved and spent time with everyone, especially those the supposed "good" people didn't want to be around. Also the people I know personally who are gay or otherwise firmly believe they were born that way. I can't imagine believing in a God or god who created people only to condemn them. That is utter and complete nonsense and totally not a loving God in anyway. Why would anyone even want to believe that? I mean really!

Anyway, back to the point... I don't hate JKR. I do think it explained thigns about Albus' character, especially his early life and reasoning for going a long with Gellert. I'm glad for him. I just want him to be happy... but then I just want everyone to be happy.

[pinkie]

Why hush, Sir Francis! You make me blush!

Thank you for clearing it up - i feel pretty stupid now.

All i wanted to say is that i don't JK either. If this is how she pictured him, what can we say? I am eternally grateful to her for creating such a wonderful world for us to explore.

Some people don't like the 6th and 7th book, saying that she is playing around too much. I didn't like 7 much, mainly because it really made me feel i was reading a WW2 book. Still i marvelled at JK's skill and there is so much you can think about still. Nobody answered DMF1984's question about the laws for instance, that is saying something.

I come from a progressive country. The message in the paper about this whole doodah was three sentences long. Roughly translated it said: JK Rowling - the writer of the Harry Potter series - has outed Professor Dumbledore in New York after being pressed to do so by a persistent fan.

There has not been a single letter or commentary about this, until this morning, when i opened my paper to see an article on the sexual preferences of fantasy characters.

Gandalf was among them - i couldn't read the whole thing because i had reached my station, but it made me think.

Why are people so curious about other people's (and characters!) sexual preferences? What does it have to do with anybody? What has it to do with liking somebody or not?

Why can't people accept that people are just that: people.

(i am sorry, but this really makes me angry!)

[furandfeathers]

Gandalf was gay? I didn't know that. I know Ian McKellen is. I guess that's what I get for getting stuck halfway through The Two Towers (that was such a boring book) and never finishing the trilogy.

I've come to accept that JKR thinks he's gay. In fact I might even go so far as to thank her for the plot bunnies running around all over the place. *giggles madly* I just thought of a rather interesting one. Anyway, I'm just going to peacefully exist in my little mmad world as I always have.

And never read another book the woman writes.

Which has nothing to do with Albus' sexuality.

Actually I'm just still a little miffed about DH and other aspects of Dumbledore's character. I don't like that she made him manipulative (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, because about 1/3 of the way into that book I started skimming) and kind of cold, and I just can't get over the fact that he was going along with Grindelwald's pure blood for the greater good thing. Maybe he wasn't as bad as Voldy, but it still sounds like Nazism to me. And when has the greater good EVER been for the greater good?

Take Russia, under Lenin thousands, probably millions of people starved. (I just watched Dr. Zhivago...fluff lovers will need a whole line-up of cheesy chick flicks after that one. it's heartbreaking)

And Stalin killed more people than Hitler...his OWN people. Granted, I'm not sure Stalin was ever after the greater good. Most likely, he wasn't.

And of course Hitler. He started all right, and then that pure blood Aryan race thing got a little out of hand.

*looks for lost point wherever I left it*

Oh!

Albus Dumbledore had the potential to be contemporary children's literature's Atticus Finch. And she blew it. What was so wrong with having one absolutely GOOD character?

And they way she brought him back at the end to explain everything in ten pages instead of having the kids figure it out in the 600 pages before that well...I find that to be lazy. And rushed. Instead of taking the time to plot out an interesting book.... but that's a rant for another day.

I think I'm done ranting for now

[Smaug]

Ooh lots of things to say now. And I really wanted to go watch Mary Poppins. Hmm.

Right, people as people. Well, wasn't the question more about Albus being in love and not his sexual preferences? People can spend their whole lives looking for someone to share their life with. I suppose it's a natural question. People can spend forever looking for Mr/Mrs Right. It's not so much to do with liking someone as not liking someone depending on their sexual preference. It's nice to know where you stand in that respect, of course and it will always stop you putting your foot in it if you know. People are just people, but it's far more complex than that. Hmm.

Because absolutely good people don't exist. Everyone has (fatal) flaws, because that's what makes us human. It is that part of Albus' character that makes him real. Everyone makes mistakes, misjudges, messes up, hurts someone etc etc. He can't be completely good, even if he is. The greater good is sometimes unavoidable, when it's between a lesser evil and a greater evil for instance. Obviously not in your examples, but still. I don't like perfect Dumbledore, because he's not a God. He was young, idealistic, full of bright ideas but clever enough to realise what was 'The Greater Good' really wasn't. Grindelwald obviously couldn't see that.

[pinkie]

I should have been more specific i see - but since this isn't my first language, i am bound to mess things up.
When i am with a person, then it might be nice to know what somebody's preference is, indeed to make sure i don't put my gigantic foot in it (i am pretty good at that anyway). No matter how tolerant and flexibel we are, sex remains a thing you don't discuss easily (or that may be just me).

I consider people as people, not primarily as sexual beings. It is part of them, certainly and it is a great part of how their characters were build, but i don't go: hey, Helen Mirren, are you straight? Or any actor or actress, singer, bandmember, cartoon figure... i just don't care! Perhaps that is what i really meant: people and their sexuality is an intimate thing, it is not something you share with all the world.

But what i dislike most is what i often see happening on the IMDb message boards: people start hating each other and telling them what is right and wrong. Trying to confirm others to their theories and to each others beliefs. I don't like that. That is why i love this discussion going on here, everybody is clear about how they feel, but nobody insults anybody ( ithink people can take an example!).

I wonder what you mean by fatal flaws (it sounds great, but also rather daunting).

Now i read this post before actually posting it and i sounds really unfriendly and harsh. I don't mean to be, i just don't know how to say it any other way. Were you all Dutch, things would be easier Please, don't feel offended, if you do, please let me know and i will try to explain (though hopefully i won't make matters worse...)

[Smaug]

Don't worry I'm not offened or upset at all, it's just a friendly discussion.

And yes, I agree with you, actually, now. Sexuality is not really important in that sense but it's nice to know with the people close to you because that's the kind of thing you find out about with friends. And it helps to know where you stand, it'd be horrible, obviously, to fall for one of my male friends and find out he's gay for example. It doesn't bear thinking about. Though yes it's not something to share with the world, unless it's obvious or you have a partner so then it's unavoidable. It makes no difference to me anyway.

Fatal flaws... well all I really meant was no one is perfect and everyone really has personality traits that are not exactly desirable. And that if Albus were so good, he wouldn't be human and it just wouldn't work in my mind. Fatal flaws, well, I suppose Albus' flaws were fatal. Everything he did for the greater good hurt people, and eventually he died for the greater good, and to save others. Which obviously isn't necessarily a bad thing, aside from the fact he died, but if book characters were all perfect then no one could relate to them.

[OSUSprinks]

It didn't seem harsh, pinkie, and I doubt you could without trying.

I do think that a person's sexuality is important to who they are, just like any other defining characteristic about a person. It is all those things together: nationality, social class, upbringing, religion or lack there of, sexuality, gender, even physical stuff such as weight, height and hair color that makes you who you are. It's important to society because society happens in our heads, and all that stuff is there too, measuring us against others and vice versa. I truly believe you can't know who you are, until you know who you aren't. It takes that comparison and seeing how we are all different to help you appreciate who you are. The part that people miss though is then you have to see how we are all the same and appreciate that. Then you have to look at the differences, and appreciate those too.

Now that I have gone off the deep end of tangents, I'll stop. lol Man my period had better start soon; this lightheadedness that always comes before hand is really getting to me.

[Sir Francis Drake's Heir]

Well, the topic has moved on a bit, but I would like to say that waht really bothers me are the crazed ADMM fans that are totally flipping out when

a) It was kinda obvious

and b) We already weren't canon. I mean, come on.

I can understand being a little upset, but some people are just being nuts.

[OSUSprinks]

I have to agree Fran. They are a bit mad and not in the good way.

[Smaug]

I flipped out. It's not obvious, at least not to me. It's like an extra kick in the teeth. You can't tell them how to react.

Sorry, I'm in a bad mood. Sigh.

[OSUSprinks]

I guess I just didn't understand why people were so upset when we already knew it wasn't a canon ship. Plus I really felt it explained so much about Albus' character and his early life.

I'm sorry I wasn't very respectful of your feelings but I really do think some people are going overboard.

[Smaug]

You were it's not that. People are so upset because it's far more difficult now. So they weren't together, but it wasn't totally closed off to canon fanfiction and still had potential. And now it's just nothing. Hmmm. I really prefer canon ships, or at least one that we don't know about that has to the potential to be canon, and it's harder now.

I haven't seen anyone completely flipping out (other than me but I'm alright now) that much. But I suspect things will calm down again.

[OSUSprinks]

I'm sure they will calm down. I think it is already starting to on the boards. I was refering to a few authors who were spewing obsenities at the ADMM Boards, which I didn't really find appropriate for that site.

I guess I never considered it canon after that question about Minerva being in love with him. But again, not cannon is not a problem for me.